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aida2003 Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 186	Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:17 pm?? ?Post subject: Simple 4 estate docs: did I hear the price right? As we're soliciting prices, I noticed that they're all over the map. Our situation is very simple: not rich, first marriage to both of us, our own children who are minor and would need a guardian if we die prematurely. So, we need 2 sets of wills, 2 POA for health and finances and living wills. The prices we got for 2 sets of docs are $1,070, $590 (lawyer comes to the house), and $175. Tomorrow I'll call two more law offices maybe. One lawyer says that it's personalized based on our answers on the questionnaire she gives us and another lawyer says it's very simple documents for us: if I die, everything goes to my husband and vice versa; if we both die, assets are evenly split between the kids (but don't forget to bring guardians' names). I asked him (this is the guy who gave the $175 price): "Do we need to bring a list of assets?" No, unless you intend to leave a specific asset to a person and not your DH or children. Most of the assets (IRA, 401k, DRIP's) have beneficiaries already assigned. We get originals. We can have copies, but they wouldn't work in the court (we're in NC if it makes a difference). These lawyers do not keep them on their file. I know many people say we can do such docs ourselves, but I think having them done by the lawyer would give me a piece of mind it's done correctly. Of course, all of them say they have their docs, not some software's papers... Anyway, after hearing such DIFFERENT prices, I don't know who to turn to. The cheapest sounds great and he was nice to answer my questions, but what other questions should I ask? He's the cheapest, but maybe his paperwork won't be good enough, but then our situation is totally simple, is it worth shelling out hundreds of dollars when other people use Noel software,...and so on it goens in my brain. E.g. we have I-bonds. Some of them have POD written on them along with my DH name, but others don't have except my name. What would happen to these bonds after I die or we both die? Do you send copies of a death certificate and some paper after probate court to the treasury and they would cash them without a problem? Anyway, it sounded simple until I got interested in having such papers drawn and now my silly brain comes up with all these stupid questions. Thanks
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nisiprius Joined: 26 Jul 2007 Posts: 14527 Location: North America; Western Hemisphere; the Earth; the Solar System; the Universe; the Mind of God	Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:25 pm?? ?Post subject: I live in a place where legal services aren't particularly cheap. A lawyer in a storefront in our suburban town charged me $500 for two wills, two durable powers of attorney, and a declaration of homestead. A couple of years later he charged me $100 to make a small update (involving, of course, printing new copies and having them witnessed and signed). Previous wills I've done are in the same ballpark. These are simple "I-love-you-honey" wills. I wouldn't worry too much about the $175 wills being too cheap, as long as it's really being done by a lawyer and not a "document prep" service. Estate law is different in every state, and what I think you are paying for is absolute assurance that the lawyer knows the drill for your state--and keeps the wills on file. Although it sounds (and is) trivial, getting them witnessed is something that's awkward to do yourself. It has to be someone who isn't "family." He claimed (I say this because it smacked faintly of salesmanship) that part of the service is provides is to keep the wills on file in his office and to be prepared to testify in court about how they were witnessed, should need arise. Our lawyer said that in our state a living will has no legal standing. The hospitals have "health care proxy" forms that seem to cover the ground and don't seem to need to have a lawyer involved. Our lawyer gave us a fairly detailed verbal interview. He did not ask for a list of assets. No assets are specifically named in the will. _________________ Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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dm200 Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 4434 Location: Washington DC area Born 1946	Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:22 pm?? ?Post subject: Re: Simple 4 estate docs: did I hear the price right? aida2003 wrote: As we're soliciting prices, I noticed that they're all over the map. Our situation is very simple: not rich, first marriage to both of us, our own children who are minor and would need a guardian if we die prematurely. So, we need 2 sets of wills, 2 POA for health and finances and living wills. The prices we got for 2 sets of docs are $1,070, $590 (lawyer comes to the house), and $175. Tomorrow I'll call two more law offices maybe. One lawyer says that it's personalized based on our answers on the questionnaire she gives us and another lawyer says it's very simple documents for us: if I die, everything goes to my husband and vice versa; if we both die, assets are evenly split between the kids (but don't forget to bring guardians' names). I asked him (this is the guy who gave the $175 price): "Do we need to bring a list of assets?" No, unless you intend to leave a specific asset to a person and not your DH or children. Most of the assets (IRA, 401k, DRIP's) have beneficiaries already assigned. We get originals. We can have copies, but they wouldn't work in the court (we're in NC if it makes a difference). These lawyers do not keep them on their file. I know many people say we can do such docs ourselves, but I think having them done by the lawyer would give me a piece of mind it's done correctly. Of course, all of them say they have their docs, not some software's papers... Anyway, after hearing such DIFFERENT prices, I don't know who to turn to. The cheapest sounds great and he was nice to answer my questions, but what other questions should I ask? He's the cheapest, but maybe his paperwork won't be good enough, but then our situation is totally simple, is it worth shelling out hundreds of dollars when other people use Noel software,...and so on it goens in my brain. E.g. we have I-bonds. Some of them have POD written on them along with my DH name, but others don't have except my name. What would happen to these bonds after I die or we both die? Do you send copies of a death certificate and some paper after probate court to the treasury and they would cash them without a problem? Anyway, it sounded simple until I got interested in having such papers drawn and now my silly brain comes up with all these stupid questions. Thanks I would RUN, not walk, from the attorney who says you should just leave everything to each other - then the kids split it if you both die. IMO, you need either a trust OR wills that create testamentary trust(s) to handle the situation where you both die while the children are minors (and perhaps a few years older). Some of the details may depend on your state's laws and regulations.
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bottlecap Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 1305 Location: Tennessee	Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:31 pm?? ?Post subject: $175 wouldn't buy me price of mind... I'd look more closely and the attorney charging $590. JT
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aida2003 Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 186	Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:35 am?? ?Post subject: Re: Simple 4 estate docs: did I hear the price right? dm200 wrote: I would RUN, not walk, from the attorney who says you should just leave everything to each other - then the kids split it if you both die. IMO, you need either a trust OR wills that create testamentary trust(s) to handle the situation where you both die while the children are minors (and perhaps a few years older). Some of the details may depend on your state's laws and regulations. But that's how we want to do. If DH or I pass away, everything goes to the other 100%. If we both die, everything goes to our children 50:50. In my VERY limited understanding, a will includes some kind of clause about guardians that takes care of the part "minor children". Now God forbid we all 4 die at the same time, then what? Do you put relatives or charities in such a will? BTW, I sent a message to the gal who recommended her boss (the cheapest one), that I find it a bit strange about $175, so she also confirmed the price after double checking with him and said that he specializes in Estate Planning, he doesn't do will writing FT anymore (he mentioned on the phone to me that he runs two businesses), hence the price difference. He's aware that we'd pay $400-$700 elsewhere.
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aida2003 Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 186
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imagardener Joined: 28 Dec 2009 Posts: 385	Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:24 am?? ?Post subject: Here is my take on the $175 price: It's a loss leader. It doesn't require any of his time except meeting with you (assistants will draft the will using canned software). The meeting pays for his time and introduces the firm(him) to you. You may decide to do a trust and that is where you spend more money, both up front and after death. Attorneys don't make money writing wills, they make money administering estates, filing papers, etc. And less ethical attorneys may get a referral fee for recommending insurance or annuities, etc. from others in the financial realm.
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aida2003 Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 186	Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:09 am?? ?Post subject: nisiprius wrote: I wouldn't worry too much about the $175 wills being too cheap, as long as it's really being done by a lawyer and not a "document prep" service. Estate law is different in every state, and what I think you are paying for is absolute assurance that the lawyer knows the drill for your state--and keeps the wills on file. Although it sounds (and is) trivial, getting them witnessed is something that's awkward to do yourself. It has to be someone who isn't "family." Our lawyer gave us a fairly detailed verbal interview. He did not ask for a list of assets. No assets are specifically named in the will. This post pretty much says why I'm leaning towards the cheaper price now, though before I make an appointment I'll ask if that price will include a consultation and answers to my questions. If there's an extra charge, then I'll see, maybe I'll go for the $510 lawyer. It seems that quite of you have used a software to create your docs. So, tell me: Did it ask to list all your assets or was it in general? IMO, you don't need to list any taxable accounts (stocks, bonds, or mutual funds) because you created beneficiaries while setting up the accounts, right? What does it say about minor kids? Actually, a long time ago I purchased Suze Orman's Will kit, but I didn't really use it because I learned that it's hard to find a notary in my city to notarize will and POA's plus you have to drag two non-family people to witness them. I asked people at the banks and in my co. who have such notary stamps, but they have some kind of rules to follow and supposedly not allowed to notarize such papers for me. I could go to KINKOS, but they charge $20 (not sure per a set or each document), but in such case I can add a few dollars to have an estate lawyer use his drafted papers or at least he claims they are his papers. Well, it's going to be the $175 guy or the $510 gal Need to think through. If you can suggest what questions I should ask, please post them. I just think that lawyers like doctors are not really forthcoming with information unless you ask them yourself.
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MathWizard Joined: 26 Jul 2011 Posts: 25	Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:31 am?? ?Post subject: I advise a trust for minor children with a trustee you pick. 100% to surviving spouse is fine. For minor children, have proceeds go to a trust, and have secondary beneficiary on life insurance and 401K be the trust. The lawyer can give you the language to use which might be specific to your state. If you move to another state, check with an attorney to see if you need to update the will and/or beneficiary language. The language should be such that the moeny is divided evenly between all children currently named, and any subsequent children, just in case. Name a trustee and guardian in your will. (Ask them first if they will.) If there were no children, and you own everything in joint tenancy (house/bank accounts etc.) the will is not all that necessary. What you really need is to provide for your minor children. You should decide that, not a court. The trust is really needed for the life insurance and retirement If my wife and I died at the same time, but the kids survive, these two would amount to close to $1M. You don't want to hand an 18 year old 1/2 million dollars, that is too much responsibility for so young an age. You'd be lucky if they just blew most of the money and didn't ruin their lives in the process. Pick someone who can help them with learn finacial responsibility. I picked a brother who is a CPA, and had older children, but anyone who is competent with their finances and for whom the responsibility would not be onerous. We set up our trust so that the trust was used for expenses until they were 18, then they got 1/2 what was left at 18, and the remainder of the money at 25. (This was a compromise. I wanted 25 and 30, but my spouse did not want the trust to last that long) If my family all dies at once (car/plane accident) we just set it up so that each of our families got 1/2. Our parents first, if alive then their children (our siblings) split the 1/2 equally if alive and then their children (our neices and nephews) divide their parents share. Past that, I don't care about the money.
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LH Joined: 14 Mar 2007 Posts: 3802	Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:18 pm?? ?Post subject: Re: Simple 4 estate docs: did I hear the price right? dm200 wrote: aida2003 wrote: As we're soliciting prices, I noticed that they're all over the map. Our situation is very simple: not rich, first marriage to both of us, our own children who are minor and would need a guardian if we die prematurely. So, we need 2 sets of wills, 2 POA for health and finances and living wills. The prices we got for 2 sets of docs are $1,070, $590 (lawyer comes to the house), and $175. Tomorrow I'll call two more law offices maybe. One lawyer says that it's personalized based on our answers on the questionnaire she gives us and another lawyer says it's very simple documents for us: if I die, everything goes to my husband and vice versa; if we both die, assets are evenly split between the kids (but don't forget to bring guardians' names). I asked him (this is the guy who gave the $175 price): "Do we need to bring a list of assets?" No, unless you intend to leave a specific asset to a person and not your DH or children. Most of the assets (IRA, 401k, DRIP's) have beneficiaries already assigned. We get originals. We can have copies, but they wouldn't work in the court (we're in NC if it makes a difference). These lawyers do not keep them on their file. I know many people say we can do such docs ourselves, but I think having them done by the lawyer would give me a piece of mind it's done correctly. Of course, all of them say they have their docs, not some software's papers... Anyway, after hearing such DIFFERENT prices, I don't know who to turn to. The cheapest sounds great and he was nice to answer my questions, but what other questions should I ask? He's the cheapest, but maybe his paperwork won't be good enough, but then our situation is totally simple, is it worth shelling out hundreds of dollars when other people use Noel software,...and so on it goens in my brain. E.g. we have I-bonds. Some of them have POD written on them along with my DH name, but others don't have except my name. What would happen to these bonds after I die or we both die? Do you send copies of a death certificate and some paper after probate court to the treasury and they would cash them without a problem? Anyway, it sounded simple until I got interested in having such papers drawn and now my silly brain comes up with all these stupid questions. Thanks I would RUN, not walk, from the attorney who says you should just leave everything to each other - then the kids split it if you both die. IMO, you need either a trust OR wills that create testamentary trust(s) to handle the situation where you both die while the children are minors (and perhaps a few years older). Some of the details may depend on your state's laws and regulations. what benefit do the testamentary trust(s) have?
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Jerilynn Joined: 06 Sep 2011 Posts: 122 Location: USA	Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:11 pm?? ?Post subject: The problem with lawyers (or doctors, dentists, podiatrists,etc) is that the client/patient has no clue as to 'how good they are'. Practitioners who are "highly recommended" can be just average or even lousy. It's real easy to tell if you like the person, if they have nice staff and a spiffy office, but for the average lay person, they can't tell about the quality of the work. So, in theory the lawyer with the very low fee, could be a brilliant tax law attorney and the guy with the high fee, just a slick charlatan. If it was me, I'd call some of my attorney friends and ask who THEY would use (someone not in their firm or themselves) if they needed the service. If you don't have attorney friends, just call random offices looking for a recommendation that is not in their firm. When the same name keeps coming up, that's a sign the person is *probably* good. _________________ Cordially, Jeri
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Steelersfan Joined: 19 Jun 2008 Posts: 1335	Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:33 pm?? ?Post subject: DiscoBunny1979 wrote: Just out of curiosity, IF one needs a witness to sign a will, do courts ever call upon these witnesses to testify in court? What if your 'witness' to signing the will dies? What if the witness can't be contacted because they moved out of state or out of the country? It will vary by state, but in my state the witnesses signatures are (or at least ought to be ) notarized at the time of their signing. That saves having to have them appear. If they aren't notarized, then they do have to appear, or if that's not possible, have someone (s) familiar with their signature verify it. Note - I'm not a lawyer but that's my understanding. For my state.
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